Home » Archives » KoreanStudies » spies and thrillers
| spies and thrillers [message #8443] |
Thu, 23 March 2006 15:41  |
Hyung I. Pai
Messages: 36
Registered: April 2002
|
Member |
|
|
Dear Members,
Can the members recommend good articles on the training of N.K. spies
and some historical background to real spy incidents and carnage
including Rangoon etc.
I am working on my film syllabi and plan to show Shiri and JSA but we
are lacking historical readings.Thank you in advance
Hyung Il Pai
Associate Professor
East Asian Languages and Cultural Studies,
HSSB Building, University of California, Santa Barbara CA 93106
Fax: 805) 893-3011, Phone: 805) 893-2245
Email: Hyungpai@eastasian.ucsb.edu
Dept. Web-site -http://www.eastasian.ucsb.edu/
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8447 is a reply to message #8443] |
Thu, 23 March 2006 23:03  |
Frank Hoffmann
Messages: 203
Registered: July 1998
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Fatherly leaders and good articles about carnages -- hmmmm...
With all due respect, are you planning to teach a Korean film class
like a history class with documentary visual material, including
North Korea related spy movies from the South? I would find this a
problematic approach that likely leads to the usual answers that
anyone here is able to anticipate and that might hinder students to
develop good questions; and I even find your request to the list
confusing. We all know the situation as regards to such kind of
information and what is involved politically. The reply you got was
to be anticipated.
--QUOTE--
>"Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader" by
>Bradley K. Martin is a recent book that often offers
>quite deep examination of this subject (...)."
---------
On TV, I remember, an interviewee was asked about watching porn
strips. His short and cute reply: "Well, you've seen one, you've seen
them all -- why bother?" Recently doing some window (shelve) shopping
in bookstores that very sentence came to mind when gazing at the
KOREA section, from a secure distance, one eye closed. Why are there
20 books on North Korea all with the same stale and totally unsexy
joke as title? Are these all funded by the same known source, edited
by the same editor, published by the same .... or is there only one
reader?
Frank
--
--------------------------------------
Frank Hoffmann
http://koreaweb.ws
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8451 is a reply to message #8443] |
Fri, 24 March 2006 04:25 |
Afostercarter
Messages: 185
Registered: November 2000
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Dear Frank, and all,
Your big frown of disapproval is unmistakable.
But your precise reasons for this are less obvious.
Might you kindly elaborate?
A. As I read it, you could be saying any (or several)
of the following:
Accusations that North Korea engages in espionage,
terrorist bombings, and other bad things, are:
1. False; or exaggerated; or no longer true.
2. So well known as to be not worth discussing.
3. Impolite or impolitic to highlight, even if true;
because this may perpetuate hostile attitudes and
so prevent the Koreas from making peace.
4. Bad pedagogy, for a teacher. (But why, exactly?
What, instead, would you regard as "good questions"?)
5. Somehow morally bad to repeatedly dwell upon,
(the curious porn analogy).
6. Stereotyped; intellectually stale, unchallenging.
7. Made by people whose company one does not
want to keep (eg Bush, neocons, ROK cold-warriors)
B. On shelf shopping, Bo Diddley's wise words spring to mind.
You really can't judge a book by looking at the cover.
1. We live under capitalism. Books are commodities. Cover and
title in particular are designed to grab you; to win readers.
Like newspaper headlines, these are often not of the author's choosing.
Thus I don't think Gavan Mccormack chose to call his excellent book
Target North Korea. Blame the publishers for this.
2. Ergo, title and cover may be misleading as to both the nature,
scope and quality of what lies within. You're surely not seriously
suggesting that it suffices to read with "one eye closed", "from a
secure distance" - and dismiss a whole literature a priori, unread?
3. As one of the few in the North Korea field who has not written
a book recently, I must spring to the defence of my colleagues.
All hail Kim Jong-il's nuclear defiance! - which has created a
market for at least two or three dozen new books on the DPRK
in English in the past three years, which might otherwise have had
difficulty finding a publisher and readers.
Frank's dismissiveness of these riches is unfair, and unwarranted.
Regardless of title, almost all these books are useful. Some, like
Bradley Martin's, are exceptionally good. I can think of only one
really bad one, which (sadly) is Jasper Becker's Rogue Regime.
4. If Frank objects to terms like "fatherly leader", surely he should
address his complaint to Pyongyang. Brad and others are only using
and reporting the DPRK's own official discourse and terminology.
If this sound ludicrous to our ears, whose fault or problem is that?
best wishes
Aidan
AIDAN FOSTER-CARTER
Honorary Senior Research Fellow in Sociology & Modern Korea, Leeds University
Home address: 17 Birklands Road, Shipley, West Yorkshire, BD18 3BY, UK
tel: +44(0) 1274 588586 (alt) +44(0) 1264 737634 mobile:
+44(0) 7970 741307
fax: +44(0) 1274 773663 ISDN: +44(0) 1274 589280
Email: afostercarter@aol.com (alt) afostercarter@yahoo.com website:
www.aidanfc.net
[Please use @aol; but if any problems, please try @yahoo too - and let me
know, so I can chide AOL]
____________
In a message dated 24/03/2006 06:10:47 GMT Standard Time, frank@koreaweb.ws
writes:
> Subj:Re: [KS] spies and thrillers
> Date:24/03/2006 06:10:47 GMT Standard Time
> From:frank@koreaweb.ws
> Reply-to:Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> To:Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> Fatherly leaders and good articles about carnages -- hmmmm...
> With all due respect, are you planning to teach a Korean film class
> like a history class with documentary visual material, including
> North Korea related spy movies from the South? I would find this a
> problematic approach that likely leads to the usual answers that
> anyone here is able to anticipate and that might hinder students to
> develop good questions; and I even find your request to the list
> confusing. We all know the situation as regards to such kind of
> information and what is involved politically. The reply you got was
> to be anticipated.
>
> --QUOTE--
> >"Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader" by
> >Bradley K. Martin is a recent book that often offers
> >quite deep examination of this subject (...)."
> ---------
>
> On TV, I remember, an interviewee was asked about watching porn
> strips. His short and cute reply: "Well, you've seen one, you've seen
> them all -- why bother?" Recently doing some window (shelve) shopping
> in bookstores that very sentence came to mind when gazing at the
> KOREA section, from a secure distance, one eye closed. Why are there
> 20 books on North Korea all with the same stale and totally unsexy
> joke as title? Are these all funded by the same known source, edited
> by the same editor, published by the same .... or is there only one
> reader?
>
> Frank
>
> --
> --------------------------------------
> Frank Hoffmann
> http://koreaweb.ws
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8453 is a reply to message #8451] |
Fri, 24 March 2006 13:03 |
Frank Hoffmann
Messages: 203
Registered: July 1998
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Aidan, okay, thought it was clear ...
Point 1: FILM CLASS, that's a lecture/class about film. A film class
is about film, not history. Film is a new developing area of study
that is on the way of developing its own methodology, just like
sociology, history, psychology, etc. I was trying to point out that
teaching a FILM CLASS (class about film) as if it where a history
class with additional visual material (and that's what the question
aimed at) would be a very problematic approach. Interdisciplinary
teaching should not be mistaken for the same chicken soup all week.
Point 2: If I rely on the most stale and overused joke for the title
to my academic or journalistic informative book, do I ask to be taken
serious? And if I publish a book, do I need to perform a strip dance
in front of the public because that's what publishers demand? All
publishers? Fact is that EVERY country and culture has so very many
layers of reality that are worth to write about, to know and
understand, that we do not need to focus on our own pre-conceptions
of that country or culture. Shall we even on a Korean studies
discussion list repeat all the three wisdoms about North Korea the
world knows for decades, and "discuss" them? Are we really that
self-constrained? Has anyone here any doubts about the crimes and
mishaps etc. in North Korea. I don't think so. We don't even have any
formal opposition to that from Eastern Europe anymore. Can we then
maybe go beyond the black/white broadcasting and get some color on
the screen? Color means not just to get more information on the
always same issues (human rights violations, prison camps, Communist
party, etc.) but to do more and different things with information, to
establish and follow different connections between pieces of
information, and to consider the fact that we live in a late-modern,
post-avantgarde, post-cold-war period. There are so many wonderfully
developed fields within the so-called humanistics, and also natural
sciences. We can say a lot of fascinating things about North Korea if
we do not limit ourselves to the same old soup day in day out, if we
stop talking about "North Korea" and talk about the various aspects
of culture, economics, daily life.
Frank
>Dear Frank, and all,
>
>Your big frown of disapproval is unmistakable.
>But your precise reasons for this are less obvious.
>Might you kindly elaborate?
>
>A. As I read it, you could be saying any (or several)
>of the following:
>
>Accusations that North Korea engages in espionage,
>terrorist bombings, and other bad things, are:
>
>1. False; or exaggerated; or no longer true.
>2. So well known as to be not worth discussing.
>3. Impolite or impolitic to highlight, even if true;
>because this may perpetuate hostile attitudes and
>so prevent the Koreas from making peace.
>4. Bad pedagogy, for a teacher. (But why, exactly?
>What, instead, would you regard as "good questions"?)
>5. Somehow morally bad to repeatedly dwell upon,
>(the curious porn analogy).
>6. Stereotyped; intellectually stale, unchallenging.
>7. Made by people whose company one does not
>want to keep (eg Bush, neocons, ROK cold-warriors)
>
>
>B. On shelf shopping, Bo Diddley's wise words spring to mind.
>You really can't judge a book by looking at the cover.
>
>1. We live under capitalism. Books are commodities. Cover and
>title in particular are designed to grab you; to win readers.
>Like newspaper headlines, these are often not of the author's choosing.
>Thus I don't think Gavan Mccormack chose to call his excellent book
>Target North Korea. Blame the publishers for this.
>
>2. Ergo, title and cover may be misleading as to both the nature,
>scope and quality of what lies within. You're surely not seriously
>suggesting that it suffices to read with "one eye closed", "from a
>secure distance" - and dismiss a whole literature a priori, unread?
>
>3. As one of the few in the North Korea field who has not written
>a book recently, I must spring to the defence of my colleagues.
>All hail Kim Jong-il's nuclear defiance! - which has created a
>market for at least two or three dozen new books on the DPRK
>in English in the past three years, which might otherwise have had
>difficulty finding a publisher and readers.
>
>Frank's dismissiveness of these riches is unfair, and unwarranted.
>Regardless of title, almost all these books are useful. Some, like
>Bradley Martin's, are exceptionally good. I can think of only one
>really bad one, which (sadly) is Jasper Becker's Rogue Regime.
>
>4. If Frank objects to terms like "fatherly leader", surely he should
>address his complaint to Pyongyang. Brad and others are only using
>and reporting the DPRK's own official discourse and terminology.
>If this sound ludicrous to our ears, whose fault or problem is that?
>
>best wishes
>Aidan
>
>AIDAN FOSTER-CARTER
>Honorary Senior Research Fellow in Sociology & Modern Korea, Leeds University
>Home address: 17 Birklands Road, Shipley, West Yorkshire, BD18 3BY, UK
>tel: +44(0) 1274 588586 (alt) +44(0) 1264 737634
>mobile: +44(0) 7970 741307
>fax: +44(0) 1274 773663 ISDN: +44(0) 1274 589280
>Email: afostercarter@aol.com (alt) afostercarter@yahoo.com
>website: www.aidanfc.net
>[Please use @aol; but if any problems, please try @yahoo too - and
>let me know, so I can chide AOL]
>
>____________
>
>In a message dated 24/03/2006 06:10:47 GMT Standard Time,
>frank@koreaweb.ws writes:
>
>>Subj:Re: [KS] spies and thrillers
>>Date:24/03/2006 06:10:47 GMT Standard Time
>>From:frank@koreaweb.ws
>>Reply-to:Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>>To:Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>>Sent from the Internet
>>
>>
>>
>>Fatherly leaders and good articles about carnages -- hmmmm...
>>With all due respect, are you planning to teach a Korean film class
>>like a history class with documentary visual material, including
>>North Korea related spy movies from the South? I would find this a
>>problematic approach that likely leads to the usual answers that
>>anyone here is able to anticipate and that might hinder students to
>>develop good questions; and I even find your request to the list
>>confusing. We all know the situation as regards to such kind of
>>information and what is involved politically. The reply you got was
>>to be anticipated.
>>
>>--QUOTE--
>>>"Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader" by
>>>Bradley K. Martin is a recent book that often offers
>>>quite deep examination of this subject (...)."
>>---------
>>
>>On TV, I remember, an interviewee was asked about watching porn
>>strips. His short and cute reply: "Well, you've seen one, you've seen
>>them all -- why bother?" Recently doing some window (shelve) shopping
>>in bookstores that very sentence came to mind when gazing at the
>>KOREA section, from a secure distance, one eye closed. Why are there
>>20 books on North Korea all with the same stale and totally unsexy
>>joke as title? Are these all funded by the same known source, edited
>>by the same editor, published by the same .... or is there only one
>>reader?
>>
>>Frank
>>
>>--
>>--------------------------------------
>>Frank Hoffmann
>>http://koreaweb.ws
--
--------------------------------------
Frank Hoffmann
http://koreaweb.ws
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8456 is a reply to message #8453] |
Fri, 24 March 2006 15:02 |
Suk-Young Kim
Messages: 1
Registered: March 2006
|
Junior Member |
|
|
Hello all:
I agree with Frank’s point 2. This is not to dismiss all the existing
publications on North Korean crisis, but to acknowledge that there is
much more
to North Korean scholarship beyond political and economic analyses.
As a person currently working on a book on how the NK propaganda theatre/film
created discursive and unpredictable cultural practices of everyday life, I
come to realize that taking such a cultural approach to NK is a pretty
exciting
way of understanding why and how NK sustains itself so firmly. But at the same
time, it is a
tough mission to accomplish because one is doomed to rely heavily on
ethnographic research skills. Interviewing defectors might yield to incorrect
or biased information, but at least, it is doable and is the only way to
understand everyday life practices in NK at the present moment. Many
interesting books can be written on NK via ethnographic research, and it will
be nice to see more publications on NK culture counterbalancing the current NK
scholarship which leans heavily towards NK crisis.
Suk-Young Kim
Quoting Frank Hoffmann :
> Aidan, okay, thought it was clear ...
>
> Point 1: FILM CLASS, that's a lecture/class about film. A film class
> is about film, not history. Film is a new developing area of study
> that is on the way of developing its own methodology, just like
> sociology, history, psychology, etc. I was trying to point out that
> teaching a FILM CLASS (class about film) as if it where a history
> class with additional visual material (and that's what the question
> aimed at) would be a very problematic approach. Interdisciplinary
> teaching should not be mistaken for the same chicken soup all week.
>
> Point 2: If I rely on the most stale and overused joke for the title
> to my academic or journalistic informative book, do I ask to be taken
> serious? And if I publish a book, do I need to perform a strip dance
> in front of the public because that's what publishers demand? All
> publishers? Fact is that EVERY country and culture has so very many
> layers of reality that are worth to write about, to know and
> understand, that we do not need to focus on our own pre-conceptions
> of that country or culture. Shall we even on a Korean studies
> discussion list repeat all the three wisdoms about North Korea the
> world knows for decades, and "discuss" them? Are we really that
> self-constrained? Has anyone here any doubts about the crimes and
> mishaps etc. in North Korea. I don't think so. We don't even have any
> formal opposition to that from Eastern Europe anymore. Can we then
> maybe go beyond the black/white broadcasting and get some color on
> the screen? Color means not just to get more information on the
> always same issues (human rights violations, prison camps, Communist
> party, etc.) but to do more and different things with information, to
> establish and follow different connections between pieces of
> information, and to consider the fact that we live in a late-modern,
> post-avantgarde, post-cold-war period. There are so many wonderfully
> developed fields within the so-called humanistics, and also natural
> sciences. We can say a lot of fascinating things about North Korea if
> we do not limit ourselves to the same old soup day in day out, if we
> stop talking about "North Korea" and talk about the various aspects
> of culture, economics, daily life.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>> Dear Frank, and all,
>>
>> Your big frown of disapproval is unmistakable.
>> But your precise reasons for this are less obvious.
>> Might you kindly elaborate?
>>
>> A. As I read it, you could be saying any (or several)
>> of the following:
>>
>> Accusations that North Korea engages in espionage,
>> terrorist bombings, and other bad things, are:
>>
>> 1. False; or exaggerated; or no longer true.
>> 2. So well known as to be not worth discussing.
>> 3. Impolite or impolitic to highlight, even if true;
>> because this may perpetuate hostile attitudes and
>> so prevent the Koreas from making peace.
>> 4. Bad pedagogy, for a teacher. (But why, exactly?
>> What, instead, would you regard as "good questions"?)
>> 5. Somehow morally bad to repeatedly dwell upon,
>> (the curious porn analogy).
>> 6. Stereotyped; intellectually stale, unchallenging.
>> 7. Made by people whose company one does not
>> want to keep (eg Bush, neocons, ROK cold-warriors)
>>
>>
>> B. On shelf shopping, Bo Diddley's wise words spring to mind.
>> You really can't judge a book by looking at the cover.
>>
>> 1. We live under capitalism. Books are commodities. Cover and
>> title in particular are designed to grab you; to win readers.
>> Like newspaper headlines, these are often not of the author's choosing.
>> Thus I don't think Gavan Mccormack chose to call his excellent book
>> Target North Korea. Blame the publishers for this.
>>
>> 2. Ergo, title and cover may be misleading as to both the nature,
>> scope and quality of what lies within. You're surely not seriously
>> suggesting that it suffices to read with "one eye closed", "from a
>> secure distance" - and dismiss a whole literature a priori, unread?
>>
>> 3. As one of the few in the North Korea field who has not written
>> a book recently, I must spring to the defence of my colleagues.
>> All hail Kim Jong-il's nuclear defiance! - which has created a
>> market for at least two or three dozen new books on the DPRK
>> in English in the past three years, which might otherwise have had
>> difficulty finding a publisher and readers.
>>
>> Frank's dismissiveness of these riches is unfair, and unwarranted.
>> Regardless of title, almost all these books are useful. Some, like
>> Bradley Martin's, are exceptionally good. I can think of only one
>> really bad one, which (sadly) is Jasper Becker's Rogue Regime.
>>
>> 4. If Frank objects to terms like "fatherly leader", surely he should
>> address his complaint to Pyongyang. Brad and others are only using
>> and reporting the DPRK's own official discourse and terminology.
>> If this sound ludicrous to our ears, whose fault or problem is that?
>>
>> best wishes
>> Aidan
>>
>> AIDAN FOSTER-CARTER
>> Honorary Senior Research Fellow in Sociology & Modern Korea, Leeds
>> University
>> Home address: 17 Birklands Road, Shipley, West Yorkshire, BD18 3BY, UK
>> tel: +44(0) 1274 588586 (alt) +44(0) 1264 737634 mobile:
>> +44(0) 7970 741307
>> fax: +44(0) 1274 773663 ISDN: +44(0) 1274 589280
>> Email: afostercarter@aol.com (alt) afostercarter@yahoo.com
>> website: www.aidanfc.net
>> [Please use @aol; but if any problems, please try @yahoo too - and
>> let me know, so I can chide AOL]
>>
>> ____________
>>
>> In a message dated 24/03/2006 06:10:47 GMT Standard Time,
>> frank@koreaweb.ws writes:
>>
>>> Subj:Re: [KS] spies and thrillers
>>> Date:24/03/2006 06:10:47 GMT Standard Time
>>> From:frank@koreaweb.ws
>>> Reply-to:Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>>> To:Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>>> Sent from the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Fatherly leaders and good articles about carnages -- hmmmm...
>>> With all due respect, are you planning to teach a Korean film class
>>> like a history class with documentary visual material, including
>>> North Korea related spy movies from the South? I would find this a
>>> problematic approach that likely leads to the usual answers that
>>> anyone here is able to anticipate and that might hinder students to
>>> develop good questions; and I even find your request to the list
>>> confusing. We all know the situation as regards to such kind of
>>> information and what is involved politically. The reply you got was
>>> to be anticipated.
>>>
>>> --QUOTE--
>>>> "Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader" by
>>>> Bradley K. Martin is a recent book that often offers
>>>> quite deep examination of this subject (...)."
>>> ---------
>>>
>>> On TV, I remember, an interviewee was asked about watching porn
>>> strips. His short and cute reply: "Well, you've seen one, you've seen
>>> them all -- why bother?" Recently doing some window (shelve) shopping
>>> in bookstores that very sentence came to mind when gazing at the
>>> KOREA section, from a secure distance, one eye closed. Why are there
>>> 20 books on North Korea all with the same stale and totally unsexy
>>> joke as title? Are these all funded by the same known source, edited
>>> by the same editor, published by the same .... or is there only one
>>> reader?
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> --
>>> --------------------------------------
>>> Frank Hoffmann
>>> http://koreaweb.ws
>
>
> --
> --------------------------------------
> Frank Hoffmann
> http://koreaweb.ws
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8457 is a reply to message #8453] |
Fri, 24 March 2006 18:02 |
Frank Hoffmann
Messages: 203
Registered: July 1998
|
Senior Member |
|
|
(cont.)
Allow me to give you two examples.
Example (A):
Professor Keith Howard's presentations and
publications on music from/in North Korea: While
he is in every case very aware of the political
circumstances and while he includes this in his
analysis, he still focuses on music. We learn
something about music, on particular connections
and developments within the political context,
but also beyond a political context. In every
talk I heard by him I always understood that
there were actual people out there doing this,
and that neither the music nor the people could
be completely "explained" purely in terms of
political or economic contexts. We can learn much
more about a culture by looking at one cultural
or artistic work (and after that another and
another) than by reading or writing 20 more books
on how the prison camp system or the spy network
is organized or how exactly the ranking within
the party has shifted.
A somewhat different example (B):
In October last year the Museum of East Asian Art
and the Free University of Berlin held a
symposium on Koguryô murals that went hand in
hand with an exhibition on the same topic.
Professor Rocco Mazz of Bologna University is the
scholar leading UNESCO's project for the
protection and possible partial restoration of
Koguryô tombs in both NE China and northern
Korea. This talk on mural paintings was so
fascinating because his research was purely based
on "hard sciences" like chemistry and physics. He
was thereby able to "discharge" a whole area of
art historical scholarship that is mostly based
on iconographic analysis à la Gombrich and texts,
and texts about texts. My point here is not if
Professor Mazz is right or wrong in his final
statements, but the fact that he is looking at
one specific area (the dating of Koguryô murals)
using latest technology and testing methods, a
rigid approach that does not start with all the
pre-conceptions and nationalist agendas art
historians, historians, and Korean studies
country specialist have to deal with -- with
underlaying questions about national identity
(Korean vs. Chinese). In this case, in this
example, a scholar, was able to give some very
important input exactly because there was no
embedding process of his particular work into the
shared cultural assumptions about Koguryô culture
and dating and its relationship to China.
I doubt that more summaries of the political and
economic situation in North Korea, another set of
books that all cover very similar and overlapping
areas starting from the P'yôngyang subway system
to Kim Il Sung / Kim Il Jong cult do help anyone
to better understand North Korea. What I have
seen is that a single talk about one work of art
or music does this job much better, even if just
a technical analysis. All the political analysis
and the institutions that created them did not
help West Germany (or its big brother) to even
remotely forecast the fall of the Berlin Wall in
1989, nor did it help the regime in East German
(or its big brother) to stay in power. But the
ongoing exchange of culture, information, and
education between the two states -- the case by
case exchanges of goods and knowledge (that had
never really been interrupted) sure helped to
avoid any sort of violence when the Wall fell.
These allowed for a basic understanding that was
most certainly not due to books on political
analysis of systems.
Frank
--
--------------------------------------
Frank Hoffmann
http://koreaweb.ws
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8460 is a reply to message #8457] |
Fri, 24 March 2006 20:56 |
William Brown
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2002
|
Junior Member |
|
|
To the original question, actually South Korea's National Intelligence Service webpage, http://eng.nis.go.kr/ has some historical information on this. Particularly interesting perhaps for a film is the story they have about the spy posing as a Lebanese - Philipino and teaching Islam in Seoul. Or a follow-up to see what has happened to the guy.
Also, Andrei Lankov now at Kookmin U. writes extensively on these issues--maybe he is on our list. You can google him and see lots of articles. Here is one.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/GB26Dg01.html
Amazing. Why is it not ok to do film on spy stuff? Is NK music "culture" all there is?
From: Frank Hoffmann <frank@koreaweb.ws>
Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws>
To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws>
Subject: Re: [KS] spies and thrillers
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:02:12 -0800
(cont.)
Allow me to give you two examples.
Example (A):
Professor Keith Howard's presentations and publications on music from/in North Korea: While he is in every case very aware of the political circumstances and while he includes this in his analysis, he still focuses on music. We learn something about music, on particular connections and developments within the political context, but also beyond a political context. In every talk I heard by him I always understood that there were actual
people out there doing this, and that neither the music nor the people could be completely "explained" purely in terms of political or economic contexts. We can learn much more about a culture by looking at one cultural or artistic work (and after that another and another) than by reading or writing 20 more books on how the prison camp system or the spy network is organized or how exactly the ranking within the party has shifted.
A somewhat different example (B):
In October last year the Museum of East Asian Art and the Free University of Berlin held a symposium on Koguryô murals that went hand in hand with an exhibition on the same topic.
Professor Rocco Mazz of Bologna University is the scholar leading UNESCO's project for the protection and possible partial restoration of Koguryô tombs in both NE China and northern Korea. This talk on mural paintings was so fascinating
because his research was purely based on "hard sciences" like chemistry and physics. He was thereby able to "discharge" a whole area of art historical scholarship that is mostly based on iconographic analysis à la Gombrich and texts, and texts about texts. My point here is not if Professor Mazz is right or wrong in his final statements, but the fact that he is looking at one specific area (the dating of Koguryô murals) using latest technology and testing methods, a rigid approach that does not start with all the pre-conceptions and nationalist agendas art historians, historians, and Korean studies country specialist have to deal with -- with underlaying questions about national identity (Korean vs. Chinese). In this case, in this example, a scholar, was able to give some very important input exactly because there was no embedding process of his particular work into the shared cultural
assumptions about Koguryô culture and dating and its relationship to China.
I doubt that more summaries of the political and economic situation in North Korea, another set of books that all cover very similar and overlapping areas starting from the P'yôngyang subway system to Kim Il Sung / Kim Il Jong cult do help anyone to better understand North Korea. What I have seen is that a single talk about one work of art or music does this job much better, even if just a technical analysis. All the political analysis and the institutions that created them did not help West Germany (or its big brother) to even remotely forecast the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, nor did it help the regime in East German (or its big brother) to stay in power. But the ongoing exchange of culture, information, and education between the two states -- the case by case exchanges of goods and knowledge (that
had never really been interrupted) sure helped to avoid any sort of violence when the Wall fell. These allowed for a basic understanding that was most certainly not due to books on political analysis of systems.
Frank
--
--------------------------------------
Frank Hoffmann
http://koreaweb.ws
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8462 is a reply to message #8460] |
Sat, 25 March 2006 08:58 |
Balazs Szalontai
Messages: 54
Registered: September 2002
|
Member |
|
|
Dear Mr. Hoffmann and all,
I completely understand the reservations concerning the sensationalist approaches to North Korean commando raids and terrorist actions. For instance, I consider the book written by Kim Hyong-hui (and ghost-written by the ANSP) more a piece of propaganda than a reliable source. During my own research on the subject, I tried to understand, above all, the political motives behind these acts and the specific political context (e.g., the South Korean domestic situation in 1974, 1983 and 1987) in which they took place. Since my research is still in progress, I would prefer discussing the subject in private e-mails, but if anyone is interested in a serious analysis of these actions, I am more than ready to share my thoughts.
Best,
Balazs Szalontai
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo.
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8466 is a reply to message #8456] |
Sat, 25 March 2006 20:32 |
Hyung I. Pai
Messages: 36
Registered: April 2002
|
Member |
|
|
Dear members,
I did not realize my innocent question would raise such a heated
debate. I just wanted something short and relatively easy to assign
to my students here who have only a vague idea of where or what NK
is. I do agree that these thriller movies do not give at all a
balanced perspective of the scope and complexity of the NK regime in
all its surreal manifestations ( as Dr. Kim just mentioned about
theatre/dance)
as well as real hardships and famine on the ground, however these
movies have now become the visual images being circulated around the
world- be it fiction or fantasy. Therefore, I feel that we should
address some of these issues even in a film class. Since I am not a
cinema person, I am approaching these films from a cultural studies
perspective in my course designing stage. I thank everyone who sent
me insightful comments
On Mar 24, 2006, at 12:02 PM, Suk-Young Kim wrote:
>
> Hello all:
>
> I agree with Frank’s point 2. This is not to dismiss all the existing
> publications on North Korean crisis, but to acknowledge that there
> is much more
> to North Korean scholarship beyond political and economic analyses.
>
> As a person currently working on a book on how the NK propaganda
> theatre/film
> created discursive and unpredictable cultural practices of everyday
> life, I
> come to realize that taking such a cultural approach to NK is a
> pretty exciting
> way of understanding why and how NK sustains itself so firmly. But
> at the same
> time, it is a
> tough mission to accomplish because one is doomed to rely heavily on
> ethnographic research skills. Interviewing defectors might yield to
> incorrect
> or biased information, but at least, it is doable and is the only
> way to
> understand everyday life practices in NK at the present moment. Many
> interesting books can be written on NK via ethnographic research,
> and it will
> be nice to see more publications on NK culture counterbalancing the
> current NK
> scholarship which leans heavily towards NK crisis.
>
> Suk-Young Kim
>
>
> Quoting Frank Hoffmann :
>
>> Aidan, okay, thought it was clear ...
>>
>> Point 1: FILM CLASS, that's a lecture/class about film. A film class
>> is about film, not history. Film is a new developing area of study
>> that is on the way of developing its own methodology, just like
>> sociology, history, psychology, etc. I was trying to point out that
>> teaching a FILM CLASS (class about film) as if it where a history
>> class with additional visual material (and that's what the question
>> aimed at) would be a very problematic approach. Interdisciplinary
>> teaching should not be mistaken for the same chicken soup all week.
>>
>> Point 2: If I rely on the most stale and overused joke for the title
>> to my academic or journalistic informative book, do I ask to be taken
>> serious? And if I publish a book, do I need to perform a strip dance
>> in front of the public because that's what publishers demand? All
>> publishers? Fact is that EVERY country and culture has so very many
>> layers of reality that are worth to write about, to know and
>> understand, that we do not need to focus on our own pre-conceptions
>> of that country or culture. Shall we even on a Korean studies
>> discussion list repeat all the three wisdoms about North Korea the
>> world knows for decades, and "discuss" them? Are we really that
>> self-constrained? Has anyone here any doubts about the crimes and
>> mishaps etc. in North Korea. I don't think so. We don't even have any
>> formal opposition to that from Eastern Europe anymore. Can we then
>> maybe go beyond the black/white broadcasting and get some color on
>> the screen? Color means not just to get more information on the
>> always same issues (human rights violations, prison camps, Communist
>> party, etc.) but to do more and different things with information, to
>> establish and follow different connections between pieces of
>> information, and to consider the fact that we live in a late-modern,
>> post-avantgarde, post-cold-war period. There are so many wonderfully
>> developed fields within the so-called humanistics, and also natural
>> sciences. We can say a lot of fascinating things about North Korea if
>> we do not limit ourselves to the same old soup day in day out, if we
>> stop talking about "North Korea" and talk about the various aspects
>> of culture, economics, daily life.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dear Frank, and all,
>>>
>>> Your big frown of disapproval is unmistakable.
>>> But your precise reasons for this are less obvious.
>>> Might you kindly elaborate?
>>>
>>> A. As I read it, you could be saying any (or several)
>>> of the following:
>>>
>>> Accusations that North Korea engages in espionage,
>>> terrorist bombings, and other bad things, are:
>>>
>>> 1. False; or exaggerated; or no longer true.
>>> 2. So well known as to be not worth discussing.
>>> 3. Impolite or impolitic to highlight, even if true;
>>> because this may perpetuate hostile attitudes and
>>> so prevent the Koreas from making peace.
>>> 4. Bad pedagogy, for a teacher. (But why, exactly?
>>> What, instead, would you regard as "good questions"?)
>>> 5. Somehow morally bad to repeatedly dwell upon,
>>> (the curious porn analogy).
>>> 6. Stereotyped; intellectually stale, unchallenging.
>>> 7. Made by people whose company one does not
>>> want to keep (eg Bush, neocons, ROK cold-warriors)
>>>
>>>
>>> B. On shelf shopping, Bo Diddley's wise words spring to mind.
>>> You really can't judge a book by looking at the cover.
>>>
>>> 1. We live under capitalism. Books are commodities. Cover and
>>> title in particular are designed to grab you; to win readers.
>>> Like newspaper headlines, these are often not of the author's
>>> choosing.
>>> Thus I don't think Gavan Mccormack chose to call his excellent book
>>> Target North Korea. Blame the publishers for this.
>>>
>>> 2. Ergo, title and cover may be misleading as to both the nature,
>>> scope and quality of what lies within. You're surely not seriously
>>> suggesting that it suffices to read with "one eye closed", "from a
>>> secure distance" - and dismiss a whole literature a priori, unread?
>>>
>>> 3. As one of the few in the North Korea field who has not written
>>> a book recently, I must spring to the defence of my colleagues.
>>> All hail Kim Jong-il's nuclear defiance! - which has created a
>>> market for at least two or three dozen new books on the DPRK
>>> in English in the past three years, which might otherwise have had
>>> difficulty finding a publisher and readers.
>>>
>>> Frank's dismissiveness of these riches is unfair, and unwarranted.
>>> Regardless of title, almost all these books are useful. Some, like
>>> Bradley Martin's, are exceptionally good. I can think of only one
>>> really bad one, which (sadly) is Jasper Becker's Rogue Regime.
>>>
>>> 4. If Frank objects to terms like "fatherly leader", surely he
>>> should
>>> address his complaint to Pyongyang. Brad and others are only using
>>> and reporting the DPRK's own official discourse and terminology.
>>> If this sound ludicrous to our ears, whose fault or problem is that?
>>>
>>> best wishes
>>> Aidan
>>>
>>> AIDAN FOSTER-CARTER
>>> Honorary Senior Research Fellow in Sociology & Modern Korea,
>>> Leeds University
>>> Home address: 17 Birklands Road, Shipley, West Yorkshire, BD18
>>> 3BY, UK
>>> tel: +44(0) 1274 588586 (alt) +44(0) 1264 737634
>>> mobile: +44(0) 7970 741307
>>> fax: +44(0) 1274 773663 ISDN: +44(0) 1274 589280
>>> Email: afostercarter@aol.com (alt) afostercarter@yahoo.com
>>> website: www.aidanfc.net
>>> [Please use @aol; but if any problems, please try @yahoo too -
>>> and let me know, so I can chide AOL]
>>>
>>> ____________
>>>
>>> In a message dated 24/03/2006 06:10:47 GMT Standard Time,
>>> frank@koreaweb.ws writes:
>>>
>>>> Subj:Re: [KS] spies and thrillers
>>>> Date:24/03/2006 06:10:47 GMT Standard Time
>>>> From:frank@koreaweb.ws
>>>> Reply-
>>>> to:Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>>>> To:Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>>>> Sent from the Internet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fatherly leaders and good articles about carnages -- hmmmm...
>>>> With all due respect, are you planning to teach a Korean film class
>>>> like a history class with documentary visual material, including
>>>> North Korea related spy movies from the South? I would find this a
>>>> problematic approach that likely leads to the usual answers that
>>>> anyone here is able to anticipate and that might hinder students to
>>>> develop good questions; and I even find your request to the list
>>>> confusing. We all know the situation as regards to such kind of
>>>> information and what is involved politically. The reply you got was
>>>> to be anticipated.
>>>>
>>>> --QUOTE--
>>>>> "Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader" by
>>>>> Bradley K. Martin is a recent book that often offers
>>>>> quite deep examination of this subject (...)."
>>>> ---------
>>>>
>>>> On TV, I remember, an interviewee was asked about watching porn
>>>> strips. His short and cute reply: "Well, you've seen one, you've
>>>> seen
>>>> them all -- why bother?" Recently doing some window (shelve)
>>>> shopping
>>>> in bookstores that very sentence came to mind when gazing at the
>>>> KOREA section, from a secure distance, one eye closed. Why are
>>>> there
>>>> 20 books on North Korea all with the same stale and totally unsexy
>>>> joke as title? Are these all funded by the same known source,
>>>> edited
>>>> by the same editor, published by the same .... or is there only one
>>>> reader?
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>> Frank Hoffmann
>>>> http://koreaweb.ws
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------
>> Frank Hoffmann
>> http://koreaweb.ws
>
>
>
>
Hyung Il Pai
Associate Professor
East Asian Languages and Cultural Studies,
HSSB Building, University of California, Santa Barbara CA 93106
Fax: 805) 893-3011, Phone: 805) 893-2245
Email: Hyungpai@eastasian.ucsb.edu
Dept. Web-site -http://www.eastasian.ucsb.edu/
|
|
|
|
| Re: spies and thrillers [message #8469 is a reply to message #8466] |
Sun, 26 March 2006 22:11 |
<johnfrankl
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2004
|
Junior Member |
|
|
First, let me say I completely empathize with being raked over the coals for what I thought were quite innocent questions/statements. About half the time I reread my posts and regret having written without more thought; the other half I conclude that some people just like to argue:)
To these statements: "I just wanted something short and relatively easy to assign to my students here who have only a vague idea of where or what NK is. I do agree that these thriller movies do not give at all a balanced perspective of the scope and complexity of the NK regime in all its surreal manifestations .... however these movies have now become the visual images being circulated around the world- be it fiction or fantasy. Therefore, I feel that we should address some of these issues even in a film class."
I understand the logic, to a point. But I can't help feeling that "Shwiri" and "JSA" tell us way more about South Korean fears and fantasies (as you mentioned) regarding North Korea than they do about NK itself. These are SK products. In the former, a handful of NK agents handily wipes out what appears to be half the SK army, while in the latter the "common people" of NK and SK would get along without a hitch if it weren't for all that pesky foreign ideology and interference. Also interesting in "JSA" are the twin assumptions surrounding the character played by Yi YOng-ae. The first is that she is at all convincing as a half-Korean, half-Swiss (?), and one raised outside Korea, at that. The second, and more significant IMHO, is that the UN military higher-ups either understand or care so little about both Koreas as to send a 30-something, half-Korean woman to deal with a bunch of 60-something Korean generals.
So I do think that these movies are good for getting at certain SK ideas about the outside world, including NK.
John Frankl
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed May 22 07:12:53 EDT 2013
|
Korean Studies Discussion List
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
