Home » Archives » KoreanStudies » Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate?
| Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate? [message #7235] |
Wed, 16 June 2004 16:22  |
Bert Edens
Messages: 4
Registered: January 2004
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Junior Member |
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Greetings, all...
I know there are several references to Hwan-Un being the illegitimate son
of Hwan-In, but are there any references as to the story behind it? Or do
they just say that he is, and leave it at that? Especially considering the
"clan / totem origin" possibilities of the Dan-Gun myth, it makes me wonder
about this...
Thank you in advance for everyone's time.
- Bert Edens
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| Re: Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate? [message #7236 is a reply to message #7235] |
Thu, 17 June 2004 00:38  |
Lauren W. Deutsch
Messages: 66
Registered: October 2003
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Member |
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Dear Bert ... You might find something in the writing of the late Dr. Zo
Zayong. He self-published (Sams(h)in Haegwan) books, in Korean only) several
books and had referenced some of this informally to me. He had built a
shrine on his land, site of the last incarnation of the Emile Museum
situated in Songrisan, to the three-some. It was, and remains, interesting
but beyond my ken.
Lauren Deutsch
> From: Bert Edens
> Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:22:27 -0500
> To: Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> Subject: [KS] Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate?
>
> Greetings, all...
> I know there are several references to Hwan-Un being the illegitimate son
> of Hwan-In, but are there any references as to the story behind it? Or do
> they just say that he is, and leave it at that? Especially considering the
> "clan / totem origin" possibilities of the Dan-Gun myth, it makes me wonder
> about this...
> Thank you in advance for everyone's time.
>
> - Bert Edens
>
>
>
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| Re: Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate? [message #7237 is a reply to message #7236] |
Thu, 17 June 2004 15:58 |
Eugene Y. Park
Messages: 61
Registered: October 2001
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Member |
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Dear Bert,
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I think the term "seoja" (by which
Hwan-ung is refered in the text) has other meanings besides
"illegitiamte/secondary son." The one I'm thinking of is a son other than
the eldest (i.e. "jungja").
I look forward to hearing some more about this from other colleagues on
the list.
Cheers,
Gene
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Lauren Deutsch wrote:
> Dear Bert ... You might find something in the writing of the late Dr. Zo
> Zayong. He self-published (Sams(h)in Haegwan) books, in Korean only) several
> books and had referenced some of this informally to me. He had built a
> shrine on his land, site of the last incarnation of the Emile Museum
> situated in Songrisan, to the three-some. It was, and remains, interesting
> but beyond my ken.
>
> Lauren Deutsch
>
>
>
> > From: Bert Edens
> > Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:22:27 -0500
> > To: Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> > Subject: [KS] Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate?
> >
> > Greetings, all...
> > I know there are several references to Hwan-Un being the illegitimate son
> > of Hwan-In, but are there any references as to the story behind it? Or do
> > they just say that he is, and leave it at that? Especially considering the
> > "clan / totem origin" possibilities of the Dan-Gun myth, it makes me wonder
> > about this...
> > Thank you in advance for everyone's time.
> >
> > - Bert Edens
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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| Re: Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate? [message #7238 is a reply to message #7235] |
Fri, 18 June 2004 20:51 |
joshua john van lieu
Messages: 18
Registered: August 2000
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Junior Member |
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Hello,
Hwanung was said to be a seoja. There is some debate as to what a seoja was. While a standard dictionary entry might yield "illegitimate son," a better translation might be "son of a secondary wife." On page 1777 of the Guksa daesajeon, edited by Yi Hongsik (early 1970's??), Hwanung is identified as the seoja of Hwanin but the entry claims that seoja should be understood as jungja, or a son other than the first son. I do not know what the justification for this interpretation is but you can check out the list of references in the entry and find out.
I also did a quick google search on Hwanung and found an essay that claims that seoja means "several sons" or a "variety of sons" implying that Hwanung might have been one of many sons. You can find that essay here:
http://home.hanmir.com/~kiking/han4.htm
If you do a google search, you will find quite a lot on Hwanung. Of course, you should bring more than a little salt with you while you read...
Joshua Van Lieu
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Bert Edens wrote:
> Greetings, all...
> I know there are several references to Hwan-Un being the illegitimate son
> of Hwan-In, but are there any references as to the story behind it? Or do
> they just say that he is, and leave it at that? Especially considering the
> "clan / totem origin" possibilities of the Dan-Gun myth, it makes me wonder
> about this...
> Thank you in advance for everyone's time.
>
> - Bert Edens
>
>
>
>
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| RE: Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate? [message #7239 is a reply to message #7235] |
Sat, 19 June 2004 05:26 |
Werner Sasse
Messages: 71
Registered: November 2001
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Member |
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Greetings-
I do not see any reason to try to find some "better" word for "son of a 2nd wife/concubine". Since we are in a myth, any modern legal or even moral thinking is certainly out of place (have fun and read some Greek mythology for a change...) Anyway, I read this fact placed so prominently in the beginning of the myth as an early indication that there is something special about Hwanung, something which distinguishes him from a "purely Heavenly being and content with that" from the very beginning, and is thereby from the very beginning of the story preparing the listener for his desire to leave Heaven and descend to live in the beautiful Korean mountains.
Besides, what is worse: being descendents of a concubine, or being descendents of a she-bear...
Greetings, Your Werner Sasse
>From: Bert Edens <bedens@apprenticeis.com>
>Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List <Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws>
>To: Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>Subject: [KS] Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate?
>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:22:27 -0500
>
>Greetings, all...
> I know there are several references to Hwan-Un being the
>illegitimate son of Hwan-In, but are there any references as to the
>story behind it? Or do they just say that he is, and leave it at
>that? Especially considering the "clan / totem origin" possibilities
>of the Dan-Gun myth, it makes me wonder about this...
> Thank you in advance for everyone's time.
>
>- Bert Edens
>
>
>
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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| Re: Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate? [message #7240 is a reply to message #7237] |
Sat, 19 June 2004 01:14 |
David Mason
Messages: 38
Registered: October 2000
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Member |
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Dear List,
When considering East Asian myths and legends, I
automatically just assume that the Emperor of Heaven
or any similar figure has multiple or even multitudes
of sons, as that is such a key aspect of being a
great patriarchal ruling figure in the traditional
Asian mind.
(Daoism's Okhwang-sangje, prominent in the art and
ideology of Korean Shamanism, famously has eight
daughters, as does the King-spirit of Jiri Mountain,
possibly reflecting more ancient matriarchal
traditions, but this does not preclude their also
having many sons).
In fact I recall reading that during the introduc-
tion of Christianity to East Asia, the idea that the
Emperor of Heaven ("God") had only one son served as
a negative selling point -- Why only one? What's
wrong with him, lacking in power? Or does he need
a new set of wives? Should we make an offering of
ginseng to him...? (sorry, I cannot provide a cite)
Anyway, the position of Hwan-ung in the story makes
perfect sense to me, like this: whenever a King
has more than one son demonstrating a high level of
ambition and ability, it's an obvious problem and
threat to the smooth succession of the dynasty --
after his death, there may be ruinous dispute over
the throne. One way to deal with this is to give a
younger such son some money and soldiers, send him
off to conquer some relatively distant lands, set
up his own (subsidiary) kingdom.
Thus the Hwan-ung story includes these details -- he
was not the eldest son, he desired to go elsewhere,
and his father chose the most appropriate site; he
came to the Grand White Mountain with 3000 followers
(soldiers, or soldiers and their families), and three
Heavenly Seals (showing his authority, granted by
his royal father, to set up a new kingdom), and he
was attended by three aristocrats (with symbolic
shamanic titles of Wind, Rain & Clouds).
Hwan-ung was said to have the intention of setting
up (spiritually-based) civilized government in order
to "benefit humanity" -- right, he was bringing
Bronze Age civilization to the Stone Age inhabitants
of the Proto-Korean territories to which his father
(Chief of a Sun/Heaven worshiping tribe) sent him...
Artistic depictions of Hwan-ung are rare. There are
a few on my web site at:
http://san-shin.org/dan-gun-2.html
and
http://san-shin.org/3sages1.html
If anyone here knows of any others, I would really
appreciate being told of their location.
For the most thorough and excellent discussion of
the Korean Foundation Myth(s), I refer you to the
indispensable volume written by Dr James H. Grayson
of the University of Sheffield in England:
Myths and Legends from Korea: An Annotated
Compendium of Ancient and Modern Materials
(London, Curzon, 2001).
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0700712410/qid =1087621630/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2872852-3582448?v=glance&s =books
or from the Royal Asiatic Society in Seoul
Best regards to you all,
David Mason
=====
David A. Mason
Special Assistant to the President, Korea Freedom League
Consultant, Korea Culture and Tourism Policy Research Institute
WEBSITE: http://www.san-shin.org
#502-504, Jugong Apts. Kangdong-gu, Sangil-dong, Seoul City 134-090
Mobile Phone: 011-9743-9753 home FAX: 82-2-442-7391
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| Re: [spam?] RE: Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate? [message #7243 is a reply to message #7239] |
Mon, 21 June 2004 17:53 |
Yong-Ho Choe
Messages: 65
Registered: October 1998
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Member |
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I don't think we should read too much into the term "seoja" as it was used
in the Samguk yusa. I read "seoja" to be a son other than the eldest
legitimate heir. Remember the discrimination against "seoja" (or sons born
of concubines or secondary wives) did not begin until early Choson dynasty
and it took awhile this discrimination to take a deep root. So, at the
time when Iryon wrote Yusa, there was no discrimination against
"seoja." Besides, "seoja" does not always mean a son of concubine: it
also means not a "cheokja"---that is, not the eldest son.
At 09:26 AM 6/19/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>Greetings-
>
>I do not see any reason to try to find some "better" word for "son of a
>2nd wife/concubine". Since we are in a myth, any modern legal or even
>moral thinking is certainly out of place (have fun and read some Greek
>mythology for a change...) Anyway, I read this fact placed so prominently
>in the beginning of the myth as an early indication that there is
>something special about Hwanung, something which distinguishes him from a
>"purely Heavenly being and content with that" from the very beginning, and
>is thereby from the very beginning of the story preparing the listener for
>his desire to leave Heaven and descend to live in the beautiful Korean
>mountains.
>
>Besides, what is worse: being descendents of a concubine, or being
>descendents of a she-bear...
>
>Greetings, Your Werner Sasse
>
>
>
> >From: Bert Edens
> >Reply-To: Korean Studies Discussion List
> >To: Koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> >Subject: [KS] Hwan-Ung - Illegitimate?
> >Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:22:27 -0500
> >
> >Greetings, all...
> > I know there are several references to Hwan-Un being the
> >illegitimate son of Hwan-In, but are there any references as to the
> >story behind it? Or do they just say that he is, and leave it at
> >that? Especially considering the "clan / totem origin" possibilities
> >of the Dan-Gun myth, it makes me wonder about this...
> > Thank you in advance for everyone's time.
> >
> >- Bert Edens
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>----------
>Add photos to your e-mail with MSN
>8. Get 2 months FREE*.
Yong-ho Choe
Department of History
University of Hawaii
Honolulu, HI 96822
Tel: 808 956-6762 (office)
Fax: 808 956-9600
e-mail: choeyh@hawaii.edu
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