Home » Archives » KoreanStudies » Joseon-era official terms
| Joseon-era official terms [message #11293] |
Wed, 29 December 2010 22:07  |
DeberniereTorrey
Messages: 14
Registered: April 2005
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Junior Member |
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Dear Members:
I'm trying to determine the English for the terms listed below. Charles Hucker's Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China gives some, but not all, and I'm also wondering if the translations would be different for the Korean context. I'm also listing my tentative translations. If they are incorrect, or if you know of better alternatives, please respond. Many thanks in advance.
Deberniere Torrey
공조판서 gong jo pan seo (工曹判書): Minister of the Works Section
의금부 ui geum bu (義禁府): Justice and Prohibition Office (or Bureau)
(For this one, I've also seen Royal Prohibition Bureau; State Tribunal; and Royal Inspector's Office.)
포도부/ 포도부장 po do bu / po do bu jang (捕盜部/ 捕盜部將) Office for the Arrest of Bandits / Commander for the Arrest of Bandits. (This is what Hucker gives.)
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11294 is a reply to message #11293] |
Thu, 30 December 2010 08:13  |
James B. Lewis
Messages: 15
Registered: November 2007
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Junior Member |
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The Academy of Korean Studies has been devoting considerable resources
to the expansion of an online glossary.
http://www.aks.ac.kr/glossary/default.asp
Their interest goes back to two published glossaries under the direction
of Song Ki-joong.
Like any online database, this glossary has problems and limitations,
but it also has the potential to provide us with easily accessible,
standard, English translations of offices and titles. If we treat it as
a wiki, we can help to produce an online Korean version of Hucker's
magnificent dictionary and obviate the need to infer from Hucker and/or
proliferate idiosyncratic translations. I'm afraid that I don't know the
editors, but if we all begin to use it and identify mistakes or can
provide alternative translations and send those to their web editor with
the suggestion to establish feedback/comment pages, then we can build
ourselves quite a useful resource.
The first two of the terms mentioned below appear there, but the third
does not.
Yours,
JB Lewis
_____________________
On 30-Dec-10 12:07 PM, DeberniereTorrey wrote:
> Dear Members:
>
> I'm trying to determine the English for the terms listed below. Charles
> Hucker's Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China gives some, but
> not all, and I'm also wondering if the translations would be different
> for the Korean context. I'm also listing my tentative translations. If
> they are incorrect, or if you know of better alternatives, please
> respond. Many thanks in advance.
>
> Deberniere Torrey
>
>
> 공조판서 gong jo pan seo (工曹判書): Minister of the Works Section
>
> 의금부 ui geum bu (義禁府): Justice and Prohibition Office (or Bureau)
> (For this one, I've also seen Royal Prohibition Bureau; State Tribunal;
> and Royal Inspector's Office.)
>
> 포도부/ 포도부장 po do bu / po do bu jang (捕盜部/ 捕盜部將) Office for
> the Arrest of Bandits / Commander for the Arrest of Bandits. (This is
> what Hucker gives.)
>
>
>
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11297 is a reply to message #11296] |
Thu, 30 December 2010 12:00 |
Kirk Larsen
Messages: 29
Registered: August 1998
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Junior Member |
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An additional resource that may further complicate things (but is
nonetheless interesting and useful) is the "Korean History
Thesaurus"
(http://thesaurus.history.go.kr/index.html) provided by our good friends at
the 국사편찬위원회. Rather than give the single definitive English-language gloss
for a term, if often reveals the myriad ways in which a certain term has
been rendered in English.
The entry for 공조판서(工曹判書), for example, includes the following as
possibilities:
Grand Minister of Works
Minister of Commerce
Minister of Construction
Minister of the Board of Works
Minister of Works
(as well as "Ta Ssu-k'ung").
Cheers,
Kirk Larsen
2010/12/30 BakerDon
> The most convenient way to find the standard translations for the titles
> of institutions and positions in pre-modern Korea is the glossary available
> on-line from the Academy of Korean Studies. The url is:
> http://www.aks.ac.kr/glossary/default.asp
>
> However, sometimes some of their translations are not the standard
> translations. For the standard translations, you should look at the glossary
> prepared by Edward Wagner for his *The Literati Purges: Political Conflict
> in Early Yi Korea* (1974) and the glossary James Palais attached to his
> study of Yu Hyongwon, *Confucian Statecraft and Korean Institutions*. A
> third source would be the glossary to the recently published English
> translation of Tasan's Mongmin simseo, under the name *Admonitions on
> Governing the People.*
>
> 공조판서 is usually translated as Chief Minister of the Ministry of Public
> Works, though the AKS glossary gives the somewhat anachronistic translation
> Minister of Commerce
>
> 의금부 is usually translated as the State Tribunal, though that glossary says
> Correctional Tribunal
>
> 포도부 is not in the AKS glossary. 捕盜廳 is, and it is translated as Capital
> Police. So I suspect that 포도부 is the local police station. That means 捕盜部將
> should be translated as police chief. However, in some contexts it refers
> to the prison, and therefore 捕盜部將 would be the warden of the prison.
> Calling him the Commander for the Arrest of Bandits is too literal.
>
> This is all of the top off my head, since I am far away from my home
> library today (I'm in South Carolina, visiting family, and there isn't much
> on Korea in the libraries here!)
>
>
> Don Baker
> Professor
> Department of Asian Studies
> University of British Columbia
> Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2
> don.baker@ubc.ca
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:07:45 -0800
> From: djtorrey@yahoo.com
> To: koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> Subject: [KS] Joseon-era official terms
>
>
> Dear Members:
>
> I'm trying to determine the English for the terms listed below. Charles
> Hucker's Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China gives some, but
> not all, and I'm also wondering if the translations would be different for
> the Korean context. I'm also listing my tentative translations. If they are
> incorrect, or if you know of better alternatives, please respond. Many
> thanks in advance.
>
> Deberniere Torrey
>
>
> 공조판서 gong jo pan seo (工曹判書): Minister of the Works Section
>
> 의금부 ui geum bu (義禁府): Justice and Prohibition Office (or Bureau)
> (For this one, I've also seen Royal Prohibition Bureau; State Tribunal; and
> Royal Inspector's Office.)
>
> 포도부/ 포도부장 po do bu / po do bu jang (捕盜部/ 捕盜部將) Office for the Arrest of
> Bandits / Commander for the Arrest of Bandits. (This is what Hucker gives.)
>
>
>
>
--
Kirk W. Larsen
Department of History
2151 JFSB
BYU
Provo, UT 84602-6707
(801) 422-3445
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11298 is a reply to message #11293] |
Thu, 30 December 2010 13:03 |
joshua john van lieu
Messages: 18
Registered: August 2000
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Junior Member |
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Dear Ms. Torrey,
While we do not have a standard English reference for ChosOn era official titles that I am aware of, there are some helpful sources:
1. Pages 125-133 of Edward Wagner's "The Literati Purges" contains a useful glossary of official titles.
2. Pages 1153-1192 of James Palais' "Confucian Statecraft and Korean Institutions" contains a handy glossary that may also be of help.
3. Pages 243-254 of Sun Joo Kim's "Marginality and Subversion in Korea" also has a useful glossary.
As for Chinese, specifically Qing, titles, you might want to add to Hucker the following:
1. Brunnert, H.S. and V.V. Hagelstrom, 1911. "Present Day Political Organization of China." (I am not sure of the publisher but it might be the Chinese Imperial Maritime Customs Service.)
2. Mayers, William Frederick, 1897. "The Chinese Government." Shanghai: Kelly and Walsh, Ltd.
Brunnert/Hagelstrom and Mayers are interesting in that they were not historical references but contemporary works on existing institutions.
I may be inviting the scorn of my colleagues in also suggesting Mathews' Chinese-English Dictionary but if used with care this work can sometimes be put to good use. It is most useful for the nineteenth century but even then it is not always on the mark.
As for your questions, I would suggest "Minister of Works" for kongjo p'ansO, "State Tribunal" for UigUmbu (Wagner/Palais), and perhaps "Police Bureau" (Kim)/"Chief of Police" for p'odobu/p'odopujang.
If you cannot find or are unhappy with existing translations and want to come up with one independently, it is of course nice to know precisely the nature of the office/institution in question. Two Korean references that are of great help in this endeavor are:
1. O HUibok, 1999 (1992). Kwallyo kigu mit kwanjingmyOng p'yOllam. SOul: YOgang.
2. Tan'guk Taehakkyo Tongyanghak YOn'guso, 1997 (1992). Han'guk hanchaO sajOn. SOul: Tan'guk Taehakkyo Ch'ulp'anbu.
You might want to check the ChUngbo munhOn pigo as well.
I hope these suggestions are of some use.
Joshua Van Lieu
Center for Korea Studies
University of Washington
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010, DeberniereTorrey wrote:
> Dear Members:
>
> I'm trying to determine the English for the terms listed below. Charles Hucker's Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China
> gives some, but not all, and I'm also wondering if the translations would be different for the Korean context. I'm also listing my
> tentative translations. If they are incorrect, or if you know of better alternatives, please respond. Many thanks in advance.
>
> Deberniere Torrey
>
>
> 공조판서 gong jo pan seo (工曹判書): Minister of the Works Section
>
> 의금부 ui geum bu (義禁府): Justice and Prohibition Office (or Bureau)
> (For this one, I've also seen Royal Prohibition Bureau; State Tribunal; and Royal Inspector's Office.)
>
> 포도부/ 포도부장 po do bu / po do bu jang (捕盜部/ 捕盜部將) Office for the Arrest of Bandits / Commander for the Arrest of Bandits.
> (This is what Hucker gives.)
>
>
>
>
>
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11300 is a reply to message #11296] |
Thu, 30 December 2010 13:32 |
joshua john van lieu
Messages: 18
Registered: August 2000
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Junior Member |
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In our discussion thus far we, including myself, have written of standard and non-standard translations but I am not so sure how a particular translation becomes "standard." Are the Wagner and Palais translations "standard" or just the only ones we have in many instances?
The AKS glossary is a wonder! I have been laboring in a decidedly twentieth-century world of bound paper references.
Joshua Van Lieu
Center for Korea Studies
University of Washington
On Thu, 30 Dec 2010, BakerDon wrote:
> The most convenient way to find the standard translations for the titles of institutions and positions in pre-modern Korea is the
> glossary available on-line from the Academy of Korean Studies. The url is:http://www.aks.ac.kr/glossary/default.asp
>
> However, sometimes some of their translations are not the standard translations. For the standard translations, you should look at
> the glossary prepared by Edward Wagner for his The Literati Purges: Political Conflict in Early Yi Korea (1974) and the glossary
> James Palais attached to his study of Yu Hyongwon, Confucian Statecraft and Korean Institutions. A third source would be the glossary
> to the recently published English translation of Tasan's Mongmin simseo, under the name Admonitions on Governing the People.
>
> 공조판서 is usually translated as Chief Minister of the Ministry of Public Works, though the AKS glossary gives the somewhat
> anachronistic translation Minister of Commerce
>
> 의금부 is usually translated as the State Tribunal, though that glossary says Correctional Tribun! al
>
> 포도부 is not in the AKS glossary. 捕盜廳 is, and it is translated as Capital Police. So I suspect that 포도부 is the local police
> station. That means 捕盜部將 should be translated as police chief. However, in some contexts it refers to the prison, and
> therefore 捕盜部將 would be the warden of the prison. Calling him the Commander for the Arrest of Bandits is too ! literal.
>
> This is all of the top off my head, since I am far away from my home library today (I'm in South Carolina, visiting family, and there
> isn't much on Korea in the libraries here!)
>
>
> Don Baker Professor
> Department of Asian Studies
> University of British Columbia
> Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2
> don.baker@ubc.ca
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ _____________
> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:07:45 -0800
> From: djtorrey@yahoo.com
> To: koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> Subject: [KS] Joseon-era ! official terms
>
> Dear Members:
>
> I'm trying to determine the English for the terms listed below. Charles Hucker's Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China
> gives some, but not all, and I'm also wondering if the translations would be different for the Korean context. I'm also listing my
> tentative translations. If they are incorrect, or if you know of better alternatives, please respond. Many thanks in advance.
>
> Deberniere Torrey
>
>
> 공조판서 gong jo pan seo (工曹判書): Minister of the Works Section
>
> 의금부 ui geum bu (義禁府): Justice and Prohibition Office (or Bureau)
> (For this one, I've also seen Royal Prohibition Bureau; State Tribunal; and Royal Inspector's Office.)
>
> 포도부/ 포도부장 po do bu / po do bu jang (捕盜部/ 捕盜部將! ) Office for the Arrest of Bandits / Commander for the Arrest of
> Bandits. (This is what Hucker gives.)
>
>
>
>
>
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11303 is a reply to message #11295] |
Thu, 30 December 2010 23:09 |
James B. Lewis
Messages: 15
Registered: November 2007
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Junior Member |
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This list from Brother Anthony looks like the oldest such list prepared
in English by Ed Wagner as an Appendix to his Ph.D., but it appears to
have been modified by applying the current ROK romanisations.
Wagner's appendix, Palais' glossary from his study of Yu Hyongwon, terms
from Palais' Ph.D. publication on the 19th century, terms from
Deuchler's Confucian Transformation, the glossary from the English
translation of Tasan's Mongmin simseo (English title: Admonitions on
Governing the People), and others have either been incorporated into the
AKS online glossary or are in process now or have been submitted for
inclusion. You'll note that for certain terms, familiar attributions
appear as notes. But, the inclusion of these terms from our publications
is not being taken at face value and terms are being filtered through
experts in various fields with the intention of determining accuracy, so
there will be differences. I don't really know what Don means by
'standard translations', but I think he is referring to relying on one
glossary or the other. Because the AKS has this wonderful online
resource to which they are devoting resources, I think it behooves us to
try and make it the 'standard' source for translations that will be
available everywhere to anybody online. It would help if we users of
these translations could have some recourse to feedback, and that's why
I suggested we make efforts to ask that feedback and submission pages be
written into the coding.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, there is a history of the AKS
devoting resources to compiling authoritative glossaries:
--Song, KiJoong, comp. Basic Glossary of Korean Studies. Seoul: Korea
Foundation, 1993.
--Song Ki-joong, comp. Glossary of Korean Culture, Seoul: Chimundang, 2001.
The 1993 glossary uses the Mc-R system.
Happy New Year to all!
Yours,
Jay Lewis
______________________________
On 30-Dec-10 10:38 PM, Brother Anthony wrote:
> I am afraid I have lost the source but there is a standard list of
> Joseon titles with English translations that was published in a
> journal quite a long time ago. You can find it online at
> http://hompi.sogang.ac.kr/anthony/joseontitles.htm then use your
> browser's search function to find the terms that you need
>
> Brother Anthony Sogang University, Seoul
>
>
>
>
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11307 is a reply to message #11293] |
Sat, 01 January 2011 15:24 |
Gari Keith Ledyard
Messages: 124
Registered: September 1999
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Senior Member |
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I agree with Don Baker that the lists compiled by Jim Palais and Ed
Wagner are very useful for the kind of needs that Deberniere Torrey
inquired about. Palais's list is alphabetically arranged in
McCune-Reischauer romanization, while Wagner organized his list
alphabetically according to his own Emglish translations-- which was
appropriate for "Literati Purges," the book in which it appears. But
anyone looking for the translation of a specific Korean term will have
to review the whole list. The good news is that it's not all that long
and is easily scanned, and that going through that process helps one's
understanding of the bureaucratic structure--which is good for a
lifetime
of Korean Studies. I'm not familiar with the list in the recent
English translation of the 목민심서 that Don mentions, but it should be
highly useful for Deberniere's work since it would include many terms
relating to provincial and local governance.
In the more recent comments on this thread there seems to be a general
interest in the consolidation and standardization of lists of
bureaucratic titles. Given different romanizations and the different
scholarly approaches of researchers over the whole range of
disciplines interested in the traditional structures, it would seem to
me very difficult to produce a single list or catalog that would suit
the interests of all scholars. I think it's much better to have a
general understanding of what goes on in the various branches, and on
the basis of that understanding, devise the translation that seems
most appropriate to the work of the individual scholar. Such
understanding can generally be found in a good Korean historical
encyclopedia.
Given the many differences between the bureaucracies of Ming and
Choson--not only terminological but structural--one will often strike
out in looking up a Korean title in Hucker's work, although it's
usefulness for Ming goes without saying. Actually, I think one might
find more Korean resonance with Tang and Song titles than with Ming
ones.
As for the specific titles that Deberniere mentions, my preferences would be:
공조판서 Director of the Board of Works (rank 2a), in charge of
construction, roads, and bridges, etc. (mostly in the capital and
surrounding area; little heard of in the provinces). "Board" was the
earlier sinological form and I personally like it more than
"Ministry," nowadays generally associated with parliamentary systems.
의금부 State Tribunal (headed by a rank 1b official). It should be noted that
this governmental unit is pretty much restricted to high state crimes such as
treason or malfeasance in office. The defendants are usually high
ranking officials or prominent sadaebu/yangban outside the government.
One will not find the doings of commoners or women there except as
witnesses against some powerful person.
포도부 My choice for this is "Tribunal for Common Crime" (literally "bandit
catching department"). This was where average Koreans accused of
crimes were dealt with. This involved also many Christians during the
anti-Catholic persecutions. This tribunal was under the authority of
한성부 (漢城府), as the local government of Seoul was formally known in
dynastic times. There were
actually two such tribunals, one in the eastern part of the city, the
other in the western part. They operated under the 포도청 (捕盜廳), or
Criminal division of the city government. For the most part they were
strictly for commoners and slaves and sometimes petty yangban who were
poor or of illegitimate status (서얼), such as Kang Wansuk and many
other Catholic men and women of lower status during the persecutions.
This tribunal existed only in Seoul. Crimes committed in Seoul were
investigated and culprits interrogated/tortured in one of these
tribunals, although if they were registered in outer provinces and
districts, they would be sent to their place of registration for the
final sentence to be carried out. Each of the two Seoul 포도부 were
formally headed by a 포도부장 (捕盜部長), but the last element of this title
was popularly written and widely seen in hanja as 部將 --"general" or
"commander."
Gari Ledyard
BakerDon wrote:
>
> The most convenient way to find the standard translations for the
> titles of institutions and positions in pre-modern Korea is the
> glossary available on-line from the Academy of Korean Studies.
> The url is:http://www.aks.ac.kr/glossary/default.asp
> However, sometimes some of their translations are not the standard
> translations. For the standard translations, you should look at
> the glossary prepared by Edward Wagner for his The Literati
> Purges: Political Conflict in Early Yi Korea (1974) and the
> glossary James Palais attached to his study of Yu Hyongwon,
> Confucian Statecraft and Korean Institutions. A third source
> would be the glossary to the recently published English
> translation of Tasan's Mongmin simseo, under the name
> Admonitions on Governing the People.
> 공조판서 is usually translated as Chief Minister of the Ministry of
> Public Works, though the AKS glossary gives the somewhat
> anachronistic translation Minister of Commerce
> 의금부 is usually translated as the State Tribunal, though that
> glossary says Correctional Tribunal
> 포도부장 is not in the AKS glossary. 포도부 is, and it is translated as
> Capital Police. So I suspect that 포도부 is the local police station.
> That means 포도부장 should be translated as police chief. However,
> in some contexts it refers to the prison, and therefore 포도부장
> would be the warden of the prison. Calling him the Commander
> for the Arrest of Bandits is too literal.
> This is all of the top off my head, since I am far away from my home
> library today (I'm in South Carolina, visiting family, and
> there isn't much on Korea in the libraries here!)
>
> Don Baker ProfessorDepartment of Asian Studies University of British
> Columbia Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2 don.baker@ubc.ca
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:07:45 -0800
> From: djtorrey@yahoo.com
> To: koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> Subject: [KS] Joseon-era official terms
>
> Dear Members:
>
> I'm trying to determine the English for the terms listed below.
> Charles Hucker's Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China
> gives some, but not all, and I'm also wondering if the
> translations would be different for the Korean context. I'm
> also listing my tentative translations. If they are incorrect,
> or if you know of better alternatives, please respond. Many
> thanks in advance.
>
> Deberniere Torrey
>
>
> 공조판서 gong jo pan seo (工曹判書): Minister of the Works Section
>
> 의금부 ui geum bu (義禁府): Justice and Prohibition Office (or Bureau)
> (For this one, I've also seen Royal Prohibition Bureau; State
> Tribunal; and Royal Inspector's Office.)
>
> 포도부/ 捕盜部 po do bu / po do bu jang (포도부/ 捕盜部將) Office for the
> Arrest of Bandits / Commander for the Arrest of Bandits. This is
> what Hucker gives.)
>
>
>
>
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11309 is a reply to message #11307] |
Sun, 02 January 2011 00:06 |
Kwang On Yoo
Messages: 77
Registered: June 2009
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Member |
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Dear Members,
These two(2) links list all official titles.
1. 조선시대의 관직명
http://blog.daum.net/_blog/BlogTypeView.do?blogid=07zRU&arti cleno=13222003&categoryId=373242®dt=20090807211630#ajax_h istory_home
2. 관직명사전 without job description
http://people.aks.ac.kr:7080/front/tabCon/tabConGanadaList.a ks?conType=POS&classCode=MN&choiceGanada=%EB%8B%A4&isEQ=true &kristalSearchArea=P
Best wishes and New Year!
Kwang-On Yoo
2011/1/1
> I agree with Don Baker that the lists compiled by Jim Palais and Ed
> Wagner are very useful for the kind of needs that Deberniere Torrey
> inquired about. Palais's list is alphabetically arranged in
> McCune-Reischauer romanization, while Wagner organized his list
> alphabetically according to his own Emglish translations-- which was
> appropriate for "Literati Purges," the book in which it appears. But
> anyone looking for the translation of a specific Korean term will have
> to review the whole list. The good news is that it's not all that long
> and is easily scanned, and that going through that process helps one's
> understanding of the bureaucratic structure--which is good for a
> lifetime
> of Korean Studies. I'm not familiar with the list in the recent
> English translation of the 목민심서 that Don mentions, but it should be
> highly useful for Deberniere's work since it would include many terms
> relating to provincial and local governance.
>
> In the more recent comments on this thread there seems to be a general
> interest in the consolidation and standardization of lists of
> bureaucratic titles. Given different romanizations and the different
> scholarly approaches of researchers over the whole range of
> disciplines interested in the traditional structures, it would seem to
> me very difficult to produce a single list or catalog that would suit
> the interests of all scholars. I think it's much better to have a
> general understanding of what goes on in the various branches, and on
> the basis of that understanding, devise the translation that seems
> most appropriate to the work of the individual scholar. Such
> understanding can generally be found in a good Korean historical
> encyclopedia.
>
> Given the many differences between the bureaucracies of Ming and
> Choson--not only terminological but structural--one will often strike
> out in looking up a Korean title in Hucker's work, although it's
> usefulness for Ming goes without saying. Actually, I think one might
> find more Korean resonance with Tang and Song titles than with Ming
> ones.
>
> As for the specific titles that Deberniere mentions, my preferences would
> be:
>
> 공조판서 Director of the Board of Works (rank 2a), in charge of
> construction, roads, and bridges, etc. (mostly in the capital and
> surrounding area; little heard of in the provinces). "Board" was the
> earlier sinological form and I personally like it more than
> "Ministry," nowadays generally associated with parliamentary systems.
>
> 의금부 State Tribunal (headed by a rank 1b official). It should be noted that
> this governmental unit is pretty much restricted to high state crimes such
> as
> treason or malfeasance in office. The defendants are usually high
> ranking officials or prominent sadaebu/yangban outside the government.
> One will not find the doings of commoners or women there except as
> witnesses against some powerful person.
>
> 포도부 My choice for this is "Tribunal for Common Crime" (literally "bandit
> catching department"). This was where average Koreans accused of
> crimes were dealt with. This involved also many Christians during the
> anti-Catholic persecutions. This tribunal was under the authority of
> 한성부 (漢城府), as the local government of Seoul was formally known in
> dynastic times. There were
> actually two such tribunals, one in the eastern part of the city, the
> other in the western part. They operated under the 포도청 (捕盜廳), or
> Criminal division of the city government. For the most part they were
> strictly for commoners and slaves and sometimes petty yangban who were
> poor or of illegitimate status (서얼), such as Kang Wansuk and many
> other Catholic men and women of lower status during the persecutions.
> This tribunal existed only in Seoul. Crimes committed in Seoul were
> investigated and culprits interrogated/tortured in one of these
> tribunals, although if they were registered in outer provinces and
> districts, they would be sent to their place of registration for the
> final sentence to be carried out. Each of the two Seoul 포도부 were
> formally headed by a 포도부장 (捕盜部長), but the last element of this title
> was popularly written and widely seen in hanja as 部將 --"general" or
> "commander."
>
> Gari Ledyard
>
> BakerDon wrote:
>
>
>> The most convenient way to find the standard translations for the
>> titles of institutions and positions in pre-modern Korea is the
>> glossary available on-line from the Academy of Korean Studies. The url
>> is:http://www.aks.ac.kr/glossary/default.asp
>> However, sometimes some of their translations are not the standard
>> translations. For the standard translations, you should look at the
>> glossary prepared by Edward Wagner for his The Literati Purges:
>> Political Conflict in Early Yi Korea (1974) and the glossary James
>> Palais attached to his study of Yu Hyongwon, Confucian Statecraft and
>> Korean Institutions. A third source would be the glossary to the
>> recently published English translation of Tasan's Mongmin simseo,
>> under the name Admonitions on Governing the People.
>>
>> 공조판서 is usually translated as Chief Minister of the Ministry of
>> Public Works, though the AKS glossary gives the somewhat anachronistic
>> translation Minister of Commerce
>> 의금부 is usually translated as the State Tribunal, though that glossary
>> says Correctional Tribunal
>> 포도부장 is not in the AKS glossary. 포도부 is, and it is translated as
>> Capital Police. So I suspect that 포도부 is the local police station.
>> That means 포도부장 should be translated as police chief. However, in
>> some contexts it refers to the prison, and therefore 포도부장 would be the
>> warden of the prison. Calling him the Commander for the Arrest of
>> Bandits is too literal.
>>
>> This is all of the top off my head, since I am far away from my home
>> library today (I'm in South Carolina, visiting family, and there isn't
>> much on Korea in the libraries here!)
>>
>> Don Baker ProfessorDepartment of Asian Studies University of British
>> Columbia Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2 don.baker@ubc.ca
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:07:45 -0800
>> From: djtorrey@yahoo.com
>> To: koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>> Subject: [KS] Joseon-era official terms
>>
>>
>> Dear Members:
>>
>> I'm trying to determine the English for the terms listed below.
>> Charles Hucker's Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China gives
>> some, but not all, and I'm also wondering if the translations would be
>> different for the Korean context. I'm also listing my tentative
>> translations. If they are incorrect, or if you know of better
>> alternatives, please respond. Many thanks in advance.
>>
>> Deberniere Torrey
>>
>>
>> 공조판서 gong jo pan seo (工曹判書): Minister of the Works Section
>>
>> 의금부 ui geum bu (義禁府): Justice and Prohibition Office (or Bureau)
>> (For this one, I've also seen Royal Prohibition Bureau; State
>> Tribunal; and Royal Inspector's Office.)
>>
>> 포도부/ 捕盜部 po do bu / po do bu jang (포도부/ 捕盜部將) Office for the
>>
>> Arrest of Bandits / Commander for the Arrest of Bandits. This is what
>> Hucker gives.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11310 is a reply to message #11307] |
Sun, 02 January 2011 08:35 |
Cedar Bough Blomberg
Messages: 42
Registered: October 2004
|
Member |
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In Korean Mask Dance Dramas such as Songpa Sandae Noli and Yangju Byeolsande
there is a character called 포도부장 and this has been translated by prominent
Folklorists as Police Chief and Police Inspector and perhaps other similar
translations as well, but I am in the field without access to my whole
library.
2011/1/2
> I agree with Don Baker that the lists compiled by Jim Palais and Ed
> Wagner are very useful for the kind of needs that Deberniere Torrey
> inquired about. Palais's list is alphabetically arranged in
> McCune-Reischauer romanization, while Wagner organized his list
> alphabetically according to his own Emglish translations-- which was
> appropriate for "Literati Purges," the book in which it appears. But
> anyone looking for the translation of a specific Korean term will have
> to review the whole list. The good news is that it's not all that long
> and is easily scanned, and that going through that process helps one's
> understanding of the bureaucratic structure--which is good for a
> lifetime
> of Korean Studies. I'm not familiar with the list in the recent
> English translation of the 목민심서 that Don mentions, but it should be
> highly useful for Deberniere's work since it would include many terms
> relating to provincial and local governance.
>
> In the more recent comments on this thread there seems to be a general
> interest in the consolidation and standardization of lists of
> bureaucratic titles. Given different romanizations and the different
> scholarly approaches of researchers over the whole range of
> disciplines interested in the traditional structures, it would seem to
> me very difficult to produce a single list or catalog that would suit
> the interests of all scholars. I think it's much better to have a
> general understanding of what goes on in the various branches, and on
> the basis of that understanding, devise the translation that seems
> most appropriate to the work of the individual scholar. Such
> understanding can generally be found in a good Korean historical
> encyclopedia.
>
> Given the many differences between the bureaucracies of Ming and
> Choson--not only terminological but structural--one will often strike
> out in looking up a Korean title in Hucker's work, although it's
> usefulness for Ming goes without saying. Actually, I think one might
> find more Korean resonance with Tang and Song titles than with Ming
> ones.
>
> As for the specific titles that Deberniere mentions, my preferences would
> be:
>
> 공조판서 Director of the Board of Works (rank 2a), in charge of
> construction, roads, and bridges, etc. (mostly in the capital and
> surrounding area; little heard of in the provinces). "Board" was the
> earlier sinological form and I personally like it more than
> "Ministry," nowadays generally associated with parliamentary systems.
>
> 의금부 State Tribunal (headed by a rank 1b official). It should be noted that
> this governmental unit is pretty much restricted to high state crimes such
> as
> treason or malfeasance in office. The defendants are usually high
> ranking officials or prominent sadaebu/yangban outside the government.
> One will not find the doings of commoners or women there except as
> witnesses against some powerful person.
>
> 포도부 My choice for this is "Tribunal for Common Crime" (literally "bandit
> catching department"). This was where average Koreans accused of
> crimes were dealt with. This involved also many Christians during the
> anti-Catholic persecutions. This tribunal was under the authority of
> 한성부 (漢城府), as the local government of Seoul was formally known in
> dynastic times. There were
> actually two such tribunals, one in the eastern part of the city, the
> other in the western part. They operated under the 포도청 (捕盜廳), or
> Criminal division of the city government. For the most part they were
> strictly for commoners and slaves and sometimes petty yangban who were
> poor or of illegitimate status (서얼), such as Kang Wansuk and many
> other Catholic men and women of lower status during the persecutions.
> This tribunal existed only in Seoul. Crimes committed in Seoul were
> investigated and culprits interrogated/tortured in one of these
> tribunals, although if they were registered in outer provinces and
> districts, they would be sent to their place of registration for the
> final sentence to be carried out. Each of the two Seoul 포도부 were
> formally headed by a 포도부장 (捕盜部長), but the last element of this title
> was popularly written and widely seen in hanja as 部將 --"general" or
> "commander."
>
> Gari Ledyard
>
> BakerDon wrote:
>
>
>> The most convenient way to find the standard translations for the
>> titles of institutions and positions in pre-modern Korea is the
>> glossary available on-line from the Academy of Korean Studies. The url
>> is:http://www.aks.ac.kr/glossary/default.asp
>>
>> However, sometimes some of their translations are not the standard
>> translations. For the standard translations, you should look at the
>> glossary prepared by Edward Wagner for his The Literati Purges:
>> Political Conflict in Early Yi Korea (1974) and the glossary James
>> Palais attached to his study of Yu Hyongwon, Confucian Statecraft and
>> Korean Institutions. A third source would be the glossary to the
>> recently published English translation of Tasan's Mongmin simseo,
>> under the name Admonitions on Governing the People.
>> 공조판서 is usually translated as Chief Minister of the Ministry of
>> Public Works, though the AKS glossary gives the somewhat anachronistic
>> translation Minister of Commerce
>> 의금부 is usually translated as the State Tribunal, though that glossary
>> says Correctional Tribunal
>> 포도부장 is not in the AKS glossary. 포도부 is, and it is translated as
>> Capital Police. So I suspect that 포도부 is the local police station.
>> That means 포도부장 should be translated as police chief. However, in
>> some contexts it refers to the prison, and therefore 포도부장 would be the
>> warden of the prison. Calling him the Commander for the Arrest of
>> Bandits is too literal.
>>
>> This is all of the top off my head, since I am far away from my home
>> library today (I'm in South Carolina, visiting family, and there isn't
>> much on Korea in the libraries here!)
>>
>> Don Baker ProfessorDepartment of Asian Studies University of British
>> Columbia Vancouver, Canada V6T 1Z2 don.baker@ubc.ca
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 19:07:45 -0800
>> From: djtorrey@yahoo.com
>> To: koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
>> Subject: [KS] Joseon-era official terms
>>
>> Dear Members:
>>
>> I'm trying to determine the English for the terms listed below.
>> Charles Hucker's Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China gives
>> some, but not all, and I'm also wondering if the translations would be
>> different for the Korean context. I'm also listing my tentative
>> translations. If they are incorrect, or if you know of better
>> alternatives, please respond. Many thanks in advance.
>>
>> Deberniere Torrey
>>
>>
>> 공조판서 gong jo pan seo (工曹判書): Minister of the Works Section
>>
>> 의금부 ui geum bu (義禁府): Justice and Prohibition Office (or Bureau)
>> (For this one, I've also seen Royal Prohibition Bureau; State
>> Tribunal; and Royal Inspector's Office.)
>>
>> 포도부/ 捕盜部 po do bu / po do bu jang (포도부/ 捕盜部將) Office for the
>>
>> Arrest of Bandits / Commander for the Arrest of Bandits. This is what
>> Hucker gives.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Ph.D. Candidate in UCLA's program in Culture and Performance
CedarBough Saeji
Address till 08/2011: 서울특별시 용산구 이태원2동 215-31번지 3충 (우) 140-867 Republic of
Korea
Permanent address: 220 Snowberry Lane Lopez Island, Wash. 98261
http://www.cedarsphotography.com
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11312 is a reply to message #11296] |
Tue, 04 January 2011 06:20 |
Charles Muller
Messages: 72
Registered: June 2001
|
Member |
|
|
On 12/31/2010 12:53 AM, Don Baker wrote:
> The most convenient way to find the standard translations for the titles
> of institutions and positions in pre-modern Korea is the glossary
> available on-line from the Academy of Korean Studies. The url is:
> http://www.aks.ac.kr/glossary/default.asp
A great resource!
> However, sometimes some of their translations are not the standard
> translations.
It should also be noted that there seem to be a fair amount of
transliteration errors, at least in the McCune-Reischauer column. Of
course, I supposed that this will only be used by Koreanists, who can
easily make the necessary corrections...
Regards,
Chuck
-------------------
A. Charles Muller
University of Tokyo
Graduate School of Humanities and Sociology, Faculty of Letters
Center for Evolving Humanities
7-3-1 Hongō, Bunkyō-ku
Tokyo 113-0033, Japan
Web Site: Resources for East Asian Language and Thought
http://www.acmuller.net
Mobile Phone: 090-9310-1787
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11316 is a reply to message #11295] |
Tue, 04 January 2011 18:39 |
James B. Lewis
Messages: 15
Registered: November 2007
|
Junior Member |
|
|
[I sent this on 31 Dec., but it appears to have been lost in the
shuffle. Or, I don't know how to post to this list. Editor--please reply
to confirm that this is received.]
This list from Brother Anthony looks like the oldest such list prepared
in English by Ed Wagner as an Appendix to his Ph.D., but it appears to
have been modified by applying the current ROK romanisations.
Wagner's appendix, Palais' glossary from his study of Yu Hyongwon, terms
from Palais' Ph.D. publication on the 19th century, terms from
Deuchler's Confucian Transformation, the glossary from the English
translation of Tasan's Mongmin simseo (English title: Admonitions on
Governing the People), and others have either been incorporated into the
AKS online glossary or are in process now or have been submitted for
inclusion. You'll note that for certain terms, familiar attributions
appear as notes. But, the inclusion of these terms from our publications
is not being taken at face value and terms are being filtered through
experts in various fields with the intention of determining accuracy, so
there will be differences. I don't really know what Don means by
'standard translations', but I think he is referring to relying on one
glossary or the other. Because the AKS has this wonderful online
resource to which they are devoting resources, I think it behooves us to
try and make it the 'standard' source for translations that will be
available everywhere to anybody online. It would help if we users of
these translations could have some recourse to feedback, and that's why
I suggested we make efforts to ask that feedback and submission pages be
written into the coding.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, there is a history of the AKS
devoting resources to compiling authoritative glossaries:
--Song, KiJoong, comp. Basic Glossary of Korean Studies. Seoul: Korea
Foundation, 1993.
--Song Ki-joong, comp. Glossary of Korean Culture, Seoul: Chimundang, 2001.
The 1993 glossary uses the Mc-R system.
Happy New Year to all!
Yours,
Jay Lewis
______________________________
On 30-Dec-10 10:38 PM, Brother Anthony wrote:
> I am afraid I have lost the source but there is a standard list of Joseon titles with English translations that was published in a journal quite a long time ago. You can find it online at http://hompi.sogang.ac.kr/anthony/joseontitles.htm then use your browser's search function to find the terms that you need
>
> Brother Anthony
> Sogang University, Seoul
>
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| Re: Joseon-era official terms [message #11324 is a reply to message #11295] |
Fri, 07 January 2011 11:35 |
Frank_Hoffmann
Messages: 245
Registered: May 2013
|
Senior Member
Administrator |
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|
Oh, I eat my blueberries every day, I still can remember :)
It is taken from the wonderful (I HIGHLY
recommend it!) work that Andrew Jackson mentioned
in this thread before:
Kim Tai-jin, _A Bibliographical Guide to Traditional
Korean Sources_ (Seoul: Asiatic Research Center,
Korea University, 1976): 559-568
Only that the transcription in the book is given in McCune-Reischauer.
I found this book tremendously useful; it
summarizes all the important classical works
(including travel diaries and all kind of
scholarly works from the Chosôn period), gives
the titles and names in Chinese characters,
translates titles etc.-- saves a lot of work if
you're looking for some starting point, or just
want to know what's in a certain known book from
that period, especially if one is not quite yet
at home in the Chosôn period as Professor Ledyard.
Best,
Frank
>I am afraid I have lost the source but there is
>a standard list of Joseon titles with English
>translations that was published in a journal
>quite a long time ago. You can find it online at
>http://hompi.sogang.ac.kr/anthony/joseontitles.htm
>then use your browser's search function to find
>the terms that you need
>
>Brother Anthony
>Sogang University, Seoul
--
--------------------------------------
Frank Hoffmann
http://koreaweb.ws
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