Home » Archives » KoreanStudies » Question regarding Sim Cheong
| Question regarding Sim Cheong [message #11032] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 23:22  |
Fianna Mithlond
Messages: 4
Registered: June 2009
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Junior Member |
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Good evening!
I'm writing from Argentina (please excuse my grammar mistakes, my English
still needs improvement), with a question to which I haven't been able to
find an answer yet.
Does anybody know around what time the traditional tale of Sim Cheong ( 심청 )
was written? Or in which century the first written records of it became
known? I've only found the dates of famous performances of it as pansori,
from 1788 onwards.
Thank you very much for your time.
María Mercedes Gallo.
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| QUERY> Opinions on lexicographical/orthographical point [message #11033 is a reply to message #11032] |
Wed, 25 August 2010 07:20  |
Charles Muller
Messages: 72
Registered: June 2001
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Member |
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Dear Koreanists,
Some of you know that I have been editing a pair of online
dictionaries for East Asian studies for some time now. We've been
running dictionaries off of the same backend framework and
functionality for the last ten years, since Michael Beddow[1] first
created the Perl/XSLT infrastructure to deliver the data through a
search engine.
After ten years with basically the same infrastructure, I am happy to
tell you that we are in the midst of a major overhaul of the entire
system, and that we expect to be able to announce this much improved
version within a couple of weeks. I will of course make an
announcement here at that time.
In the process of getting the new search engine to work efficiently
with Korean, Michael has forced me to go through the Korean
pronunciations and clean up the inconsistencies and errors as much as
possible. While the situation is not perfect yet (sometimes my head
swims in assimilation rules...) it is certainly far better than it
was a few weeks ago.
One issue has arisen, for which I would appreciate the opinions from
any members of this learned group who might interested. This is:
For a long time, we were handling the presentation of phonemes
beginning with _rieul_ ᄅ in a variety of inconsistent ways. For example:
This:
[ko-hg] 량 (양)
or this:
[ko-hg] 량/양
or else reversed, and also just one or the other. The problem was that
this was handled in the XML node (I'm simplifying here) as 량/양
, etc, which made the node difficult to search.
We have now changed this to
량
...which the user sees in HTML output as:
[ko-hg] 량 (initial = 양)
However, it was suggested to me by a colleague that it may in fact be
better to put the actual pronunciation in the main node, and move the
orthographic reading to attribute status, thus resulting in:
[ko-hg] 양 (orth = 량)
Do any learned scholars on the list have an opinion about this?
I think that the major Hanja dictionaries do something closer to the
first option, but that need not be determinative.
Regards,
Chuck
-----------------------
Note:
[1] In the process, Michael has become a fanatic about the Korean
language and culture, having basically taught himself to speak, read,
and write by downloading soap operas, studying Korean through the
Internet, and so forth. So much of his energy has been focused on
getting the Korean aspect of the dictionaries to work well.
---------------------------
A. Charles Muller
Graduate School of Humanities and Sociology
Faculty of Letters
University of Tokyo
7-3-1 Hongo, Bunkyo-ku
Tokyo 113-0033, Japan
Web Site: Resources for East Asian Language and Thought
http://www.acmuller.net
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| Re: Question regarding Sim Cheong [message #11035 is a reply to message #11032] |
Wed, 25 August 2010 15:24 |
Walraven, B.C.A.
Messages: 44
Registered: October 2000
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Member |
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Dear Maria Mercedes Gallo,
There is considerable uncertainty about the origin of the Sim Ch'eong story. Some scholars, in particular Kim Tonguk, have looked for an origin in oral literature. Kim Tonguk thought of the forms of the novel in p'ansori as the oldest.
Bill Skillend of SOAS, though, argued that the versions of the story that were printed in Seoul (in the nineteenth century) were older than the versions from Cheonju (wanp'anbon) which are closest to p'ansori as it is sung (see his article "Puritas Submersa resurgit,"in Asiatische Studies/Etudes Asiatiques 34:2 of 1980; the journal is Swiss and the text of the article in English, no need to brush up your Latin). Certainly one of the most popular Wanp'anbon editions is of a very late date, 1913 if my memory serves me right. The Seoul versions, which Skillend thinks may go back to the late eighteenth century, are much less jocular than the Wanp'anbon, more "respectable," and quite different in the details of the story. A book that discusses the complex relation between the different versions is Ch'oe Unsik, Sim Ch'eong cheon yeon'gu which concludes that the Seoul version is older than the Cheonju edition.
Shamans of the East Coast also sing the story of Sim Ch'eong and for that reason I have written one chapter about these shamanic versions and the possible origins of these in my 1994 book Songs of the shaman: the ritual chants of the Korean mudang. Some people believed that the shamanic songs, as oral literature, were the original source of the story, but for that I could not find any evidence. Different mudang produce different texts, but these obviously go back to p'ansori or printed editions.
I have to confess that I have not kept up with the issue for many many years, but there may be someone on the list who is able to furnish more recent literature on the subject.
Best wishes,
Boudewijn Walraven
________________________________
From: koreanstudies-bounces@koreaweb.ws [mailto:koreanstudies-bounces@koreaweb.ws] On Behalf Of Fianna Mithlond
Sent: woensdag 25 augustus 2010 5:23
To: Korean Studies Mailing List
Subject: [KS] Question regarding Sim Cheong
Good evening!
I'm writing from Argentina (please excuse my grammar mistakes, my English still needs improvement), with a question to which I haven't been able to find an answer yet.
Does anybody know around what time the traditional tale of Sim Cheong ( 심청 ) was written? Or in which century the first written records of it became known? I've only found the dates of famous performances of it as pansori, from 1788 onwards.
Thank you very much for your time.
María Mercedes Gallo.
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| Re: Question regarding Sim Cheong [message #11037 is a reply to message #11036] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 07:59 |
David Richard McCann
Messages: 103
Registered: August 1998
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Senior Member |
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The distinction between when a tale "was written" and when "written records"
became known is key to the p'ansori and other oral narrative forms such as
those studied by Parry and Lord, whose example Marshall Pihl then followed in
the study of the p'ansori.. The tale was composed in performance, after which
in various circumstances it may have been written down, rewritten as a novel,
or otherwise published.
It's a complex mix, the Korean language forms of expression. The kasa form
seems to me, as someone who also writes poetry, too long to have been composed
first and then written down; and it seems rather 'literary,' at least in its
16th and 17th century examples, because of certain patterns of expression, and
the characteristic, sijo-like 3 5 4 3 syllable pattern of its final lines,
signaling the end.
The sijo itself? Oral performance or written? I'd suggest both, but the
question needs to be raised about each one. An example like Chông Ch'ôl's sijo
about The shadow strikes in the water, a monk crosses the bridge, is gloriously
sophisticated, in a sort of technical sense, as the second line turns into pure
oral quotation: Yo Monk, stop there, so I can ask a question about where you are
going. The language of that line is completely colloquial speech in form, and
with the particular nuances of the verbs and such, carefully articulates the
distinction in social position between the speaker, a literati government
official, and the monk, who is a monk, but just a monk, after all.
Then the monk: "With his stick he points at the white clouds and goes on,
without turning to look back."
He doesn't deign to answer, but sends his interrogator a text message!
Can something like that be made up on the fly, orally?
David McCann
Quoting Jan Creutzenberg :
> Dear MarÃa Mercedes,
>
> according to Marshall R. Pihl, the earliest manuscript of Shimch'Ång-
> ga would be by Shin Chae-hyo--promoter and one of the first scholars
> of p'ansori--, dating from the 1870s. (This seems to be a literary re-
> working of the well-known p'ansori-song rather than a transcript.)
> The first woodblock editions of performance transcripts appeared in
> the early 20th century. See Pihl's study The Korean Singer of Tales
> (Harvard UP 1994) for more information on this matter (especially pp.
> 113-121) and a translation of the ~1916 Wanp'an-woodblock edition.
>
> Best regards, Jan
>
> ---
>
> Jan Creutzenberg
> 107-55 Nogosan-dong, Mapo-gu
> Seoul (zip 121-100)
> Republic of Korea
>
> jan.creutzenberg@fu-berlin.de
> mobile: +82-(0)10-6874-5575
>
> http://seoulstages.wordpress.com
>
>
> ***
>
> Good evening!
>
> I'm writing from Argentina (please excuse my grammar mistakes, my
> English
> still needs improvement), with a question to which I haven't been
> able to
> find an answer yet.
>
> Does anybody know around what time the traditional tale of Sim Cheong
> ( ì¬ì² )
> was written? Or in which century the first written records of it became
> known? I've only found the dates of famous performances of it as
> pansori,
> from 1788 onwards.
>
> Thank you very much for your time.
>
> MarÃa Mercedes Gallo.
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| Re: QUERY> Opinions on lexicographical/orthographical point [message #11041 is a reply to message #11033] |
Sat, 28 August 2010 05:23 |
Werner Sasse
Messages: 71
Registered: November 2001
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Member |
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Dear Charles,
in my opinion the version [ko-hg] 양 (orth = 량) when in initial position, which reflects the official pronunciation in S-Kor would be the best, because most entries in the internet seem to follow this practice.
As a sideline, which may or may not be of interest: As the N-Kor official pronunciation keeps the initial riul, I have come to the habit to keep the initial riul in romanisation when the source is from N-Kor., in order to indicate the source language (and source culture)...
With best wishes for you and your wonderful work,
Werner Sasse
> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:20:40 +0900
> From: cmuller-lst@jj.em-net.ne.jp
> To: koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws
> Subject: [KS] QUERY> Opinions on lexicographical/orthographical point
>
> Dear Koreanists,
>
> Some of you know that I have been editing a pair of online
> dictionaries for East Asian studies for some time now. We've been
> running dictionaries off of the same backend framework and
> functionality for the last ten years, since Michael Beddow[1] first
> created the Perl/XSLT infrastructure to deliver the data through a
> search engine.
>
> After ten years with basically the same infrastructure, I am happy to
> tell you that we are in the midst of a major overhaul of the entire
> system, and that we expect to be able to announce this much improved
> version within a couple of weeks. I will of course make an
> announcement here at that time.
>
> In the process of getting the new search engine to work efficiently
> with Korean, Michael has forced me to go through the Korean
> pronunciations and clean up the inconsistencies and errors as much as
> possible. While the situation is not perfect yet (sometimes my head
> swims in assimilation rules...) it is certainly far better than it
> was a few weeks ago.
>
> One issue has arisen, for which I would appreciate the opinions from
> any members of this learned group who might interested. This is:
>
> For a long time, we were handling the presentation of phonemes
> beginning with _rieul_ ᄅ in a variety of inconsistent ways. For example:
>
> This:
>
> [ko-hg] 량 (양)
>
> or this:
>
> [ko-hg] 량/양
>
> or else reversed, and also just one or the other. The problem was that
> this was handled in the XML node (I'm simplifying here) as 량/양
> , etc, which made the node difficult to search.
>
> We have now changed this to
>
> 량
>
> ...which the user sees in HTML output as:
>
> [ko-hg] 량 (initial = 양)
>
> However, it was suggested to me by a colleague that it may in fact be
> better to put the actual pronunciation in the main node, and move the
> orthographic reading to attribute status, thus resulting in:
>
>
> [ko-hg] 양 (orth = 량)
>
> Do any learned scholars on the list have an opinion about this?
>
> I think that the major Hanja dictionaries do something closer to the
> first option, but that need not be determinative.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chuck
>
> -----------------------
>
> Note:
>
> [1] In the process, Michael has become a fanatic about the Korean
> language and culture, having basically taught himself to speak, read,
> and write by downloading soap operas, studying Korean through the
> Internet, and so forth. So much of his energy has been focused on
> getting the Korean aspect of the dictionaries to work well.
>
>
> ---------------------------
> A. Charles Muller
>
> Graduate School of Humanities and Sociology
> Faculty of Letters
> University of Tokyo
> 7-3-1 Hongo, Bunkyo-ku
> Tokyo 113-0033, Japan
>
> Web Site: Resources for East Asian Language and Thought
> http://www.acmuller.net
>
>
>
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